Outcomes vs Attribution: We're Measuring The Wrong Thing with Michael Kraut

Paul J Daly: 0:00 I could not be any more excited about this episode. Unknown: 0:08 This is auto Collabs. Kyle Mountsier: 0:10 This is my jealous face. You Paul J Daly: 0:12 should be so jealous because Nathan and Spencer and I, we set up the studio here in Syracuse. We got the chairs, we get the backdrop, the paint we have, the flowers we have, the glasses of water. And Michael, Michael kraut came and visited us in person in studio, and we were able to sit down and have a face to face, live conversation. It was amazing. I could have gone for an hour. 20 minutes went by so Kyle Mountsier: 0:38 fast. I am purely jealous. I want to fly to Syracuse, to the studio all the time. I think that being in person with people is so critical. That's why we have events like ASOTU con. That's why we love going to all the industry events, because that critical mass of like being with people, especially for those of us that aren't in dealerships every day, is so important. Paul J Daly: 0:58 We're never going I'll tell you what, though, I'll tell you, I'll put this flag in the ground right now never. We're building out more studio sets in the studio, more podcast sets, and we are going to invite more dealers and industry partners and industry leaders to Syracuse white glove them right from the airport. We have hospitality suites. Kyle Mountsier: 1:15 Expectations. People are going to be coming. Paul J Daly: 1:18 I Kyle. They call this manifesting, manifesting, manifesting. I can't until I say I want a Ferrari, I'll never have a Ferrari. Oh, my goodness, I don't want a Ferrari, by the way. But we already have a studio. We already have the chairs. We already have Michael kraut, who came into Syracuse to have a conversation. So I'm not manifesting. It's happening. We hope you enjoy this conversation with myself and Michael kraut in person. Michael's with Experian. By the way, we didn't say that yet about what's going on with all these connected TVs and what's going to be the future of how we watch stuff. Check it out. Well, Michael, thank you so much for joining us. Great to be here. This is amazing. You are literally the first in studio guest auto Collabs episode ever, you know, you walk by the studio. Wait, is this for us? It's for us. You came and visited us in the studio. This is great. And the first of many we're going to get your picture. You sign it, I get a sign. And then next will be like, Tony Danz, right? And all the one you see it like the cheese steak place, yeah, exactly. It's funny. We looked at the wall color we decided to paint for this episode. And I came in and I came in and I was like, Well, I'm the one that picked the color. And then I just came in, I was like, looks awful. A lot like eagles green, doesn't it? I didn't do that on purpose. The orange chairs throw it Michael Kraut: 2:30 off. Well, are you giant or bills eagles? You're eagles. I grew up in Philly. Oh gosh, Paul J Daly: 2:35 yeah. I'm sorry. It was a birthright, like I had no choice, you know. But, you know, my sister married a Giants fan, by the way. This is Eagle. This is totally not, according to Sherwin Williams, okay, but, yeah, great. So funny. Look what when did we meet or our paths crossed? We have Michael Kraut: 2:54 our paths crossed somewhere in the mid 2000s you were still doing your refurbishing business, I believe. And Alex better brought you into a cars.com sales Summit, yeah, just wild, which is, which was probably one of those where it was snowing in Syracuse, and it was really snowing in Chicago. Paul J Daly: 3:17 It was, it was cold in Chicago. Was cold in Chicago in the winter, Michael Kraut: 3:21 like, I just remember meeting, like, yeah, you started to become on the scene, yeah. And I don't remember the messaging, but it was, whatever you talked about Paul J Daly: 3:30 was really, I was, if I remember correctly, that was what I started by, talking about the need to adapt and change, yeah. And I talked about Circuit City and how they became Carmax, which at the time, wasn't a story that a lot of people knew, because it was a big reveal moment. And like, heard it in the room, like, Oh, there. That's where Carmax came from. And then I actually talked a lot about LinkedIn and how, Oh, that's right. And I talked about LinkedIn back then and just saying that, hey, there's a lot of opportunity on the table for you to organically build LinkedIn traffic. And isn't it kind of ironic that you bring the story up, because literally, in the last 120 days, that has disappeared from LinkedIn, organic reach, really, oh yeah. And if you talk to people who post a lot on LinkedIn, you realize organic reach has been Michael Kraut: 4:11 cut, really, cut down. I've noticed it, but not until you just like, Now, Paul J Daly: 4:15 one of my regrets is that I didn't lean in five times as hard while I was delivering that message. Because everyone I'm doing something right, I would have went five times as hard and that. But that's what it's like in this in this world of constant change and marketing and data like opportunity, whatever you're doing today is not what you're going to be doing 100% in two years from now, one year from now, sometimes six months from now. Yeah. And so that's one of the things that you know as we talk about marketing and data and how dealers deploy it, and how we, even as professionals, trying to get our message out there right? How are we going to deploy Michael Kraut: 4:46 in a good way? I one thing that we've started to notice. When I started at Experian and we were building out our data for advertising practice. There really were two if. Fishes that you could play oceans to play with, right? It was sort of like a trade desk and Oracle and LiveRamp. I'm using those as examples. The places we have our data today are in so many different places, and when we get say usage reports now you're seeing names that you you'd never even heard of, Paul J Daly: 5:25 right? I always make fun of Kyle, because Kyle knows them all, yeah, and he's just ripping off these names. Is like, what is that? Michael Kraut: 5:31 What is that word? What's What's even more bizarre is you start seeing names that you don't know, and then all of a sudden, you're seeing Yahoo showing up, Paul J Daly: 5:40 right? You're like, Excuse me, this is my playground. Where did right over there? Where did Michael Kraut: 5:45 Yahoo come from? And now in in my little our data for advertising world, we're seeing, obviously, Amazon is taking their share major and it's companies like yourselves that have marketing or or tier one holding company, agencies that are looking for different types of scale, different types of audiences. And it's, it's, it's sort of very hard to, from a management perspective, justify all these places, what we have to be, but we have to be everywhere, because I don't know where you're going to come up with a really interesting social activation next, it might be the next, the newest thing that we're not paying attention to. Yeah. So all these names are always coming up with us. And I'm like, we started with like, three platforms, and now we have things from, you know, our data is at NBCU and Disney and trade desk and Amazon. It's all over the place. Paul J Daly: 6:42 So you know that no dealer operates their tech stack the same, which is an additional layer that always makes it complicated. Not only is every dealer different, but every the understanding, even of very similar dealers and their, you know, appetite for tech, or even ability to understand, yeah, probably put you much more in the seat of like, I need to be a guide to just like, how do I, how do I bring it to the lowest common denominator in simple terms, that helps bring some simplicity to the complexity you were just Michael Kraut: 7:11 talking about. It's, it's really hard. That's why, you know, we work with, you know, some of the bigger tier one agencies and some of the big dealer agencies as well, and we expect them to kind of understand how to translate a lot of that stuff, but we have to understand it ourselves, because we have to tell our these agencies like, Hey, if you're looking for our audiences, they are in these specific destinations. But the complexity, I sort of feel bad for someone that's been traditionally buying media in the traditional format, yeah, and all of a sudden they're like, You mean there's no radio? I'm like, No, there's no radio. Yeah, there's podcasts, yeah? And that's about as personal, Paul J Daly: 8:00 but the good news is, I know who's listening to the pod. You know who's listening to the podcast. You tell me who's listening to the radio. Probably. I was like, Oh, we don't need to put the probably in, right? Michael Kraut: 8:10 You can. And the same thing is happening in the TV space. Being more of an OG TV person, I do think that there's going to be this shift sort of back to cable television. Because, tell me about that, the amount of streaming and distribution places that are going, it's just getting more complex. Paul J Daly: 8:32 It's getting more complex. I'm spending more money. It's it really, exactly. Now you bring that up, you know, we've Kyle and I talk about this sometime about the level, like, now, how much are we spending a month to get our programming? Probably more than cable. But we don't really know. But you don't know because, like, my five year old is like, I want to watch this movie. And I'm like, okay, so I have used Apple TV. So I go on Apple TV and I search the movie, and then I would like, figure out how we're going to watch it. And oftentimes that's, I guess we're going to subscribe to peacock for a month, right? Because you don't know exactly what's going to happen, right? And that's what's happening. It happens every, every day in my house, and we've heard Michael Kraut: 9:07 this cord cutting piece now you're going to see this shift at some point back to cable, and it's it's going to happen when the large masses, the nbcus, the Disney's, are want to start take taking things more through the streaming channels, and then on a Sunday afternoon, you're not going to know where. You know we're in baseball season right now. We're moving into football season. Hoops are going to start soon. Do you going to remember that the Yankees are on Amazon and you know you want to watch a man U soccer on NBC, peacock, and you're going to be flipping and going back and forth, but you really can't, because you got to go, dad, at some point, someone's going to just say, you know, give me my XFINITY clip. You know, interesting. I think that's going to happen, because you're not going to write it down, no ever. And, you know, we grew. Up in a world with, you know, going way back, like a TV Paul J Daly: 10:04 guy, baby, yes, I remember that the long and as a some of our audience never picked up. They never got they never see a grandma's house. Actually, exactly, was always on the table. Michael Kraut: 10:13 It was always on on the table. But, you know, as as someone, you know, once the you know, we've saw it with the Olympics like that was really hard to find. But sports usually it's, it's the most important part of the media landscape right now. It's got sight, sound, motion, and it's live. Paul J Daly: 10:32 Now I'm thinking, my mind always goes, these days, whenever I'm presented with a problem, my mind immediately goes, How is AI going to solve this problem? Right? Because, because you think, well, you think about it, and we haven't really seen AI tools overlaid into viewing experiences, correct, right? But the reality is, when you say someone's going to fix it, someone's going to make a way for me to be like, hey, I want to watch the Eagles, the Yankees Manchester on Sunday. Show it to me. Show it to me. And it's going to say, here's how you see it. Do you want me to make right? Like that is probably where we're going, probably. Michael Kraut: 11:06 And I think that what's gonna happen is, I mean, only because this is the way media works, you're gonna use an AI agent to do that. Yep, right? I'll gamble it nine times out of 10. There's gonna be advertising in there as well, for sure, right? And that's kind of the next, next sort of, we'll call it those, those AI agent plays, or, yeah, it's gonna happen, yeah. But I do think that, you know, knowing back to your original point, the beauty of a podcast, the beauty of streaming is, you know, you're you're informed on identity, yeah, and I think, you know, with a lot of the services that we might provide in enrichment, even data hygiene dealers specifically, have to really know their data. They have to know their customers. What do Paul J Daly: 12:00 you think it's funny that we're talking about this. I'm just thinking Nielsen has been blowing up my phone for the last Yes, three weeks. Yeah, because they sent me 10 bucks in an envelope. Yep. And my son was like, what? Somebody sent you cash? Was like, well, first of all, used to be two bucks, right? And then you fill out the thing, they'd send you another three, three bucks, right? So they sent me a $10 bill in an envelope. And no curious ago, we're going to call you, right? And I really want to be a part of it, because I'm just curious. For sure, I'm just curious on what they're doing, what they're asking, but every time they call comes across as Nielsen. And I don't say stop calling because I want to do it. Because you want to, you want to try. What do you think? What do you think all these sources of data like you're saying, it's getting more complicated. Yeah. What do you think is the biggest misconception that dealers have about why the type of data that they're using in overlay matters so much because everybody says we have the best data. Everybody says it, Michael Kraut: 12:46 well, the best data, you know, specifically for dealers, is going to be everything that's in your CRM and your DMS system. That's that's your core. If you have people answering that in improperly, that's not great. Yeah, you're gonna keep merchandising or marketing to me when I already sold that 2015 Land Rover, blah, blah, blah, right? Paul J Daly: 13:10 It's like starting a song Michael Kraut: 13:12 with an auto tune guitar, yeah, it's never gonna sound never gonna sound good. So I think, and it's a very con. It's not as simple as people make it, but if they could get a good snapshot of those consumers that are their most, most loyal customers, they should be fishing for more of those people that look like that. And I think that's where the good data hygiene and cleansing methods make the most sense for dealers like you can't go outside that far outside of your market area, but you should be mining in that area for a variety of things. And I think like in today's world, we're going to have a window where service is going to be critical for dealers with affordability is so high. People are holding onto cars. They're servicing those cars a lot longer. That being said, they're also not in market to buy cars. So if you have invested in facilities and have anywhere from 10 to 20 bays, you want to keep those busy. So all of a sudden, hey, how could I market in my marketplace to people that have vehicles that I can service. Those are the those are the sort of things that where, if you have a good understanding of your loyal customers, of your base of cus, of your base of car owners in your marketplace, Boy, that's a that's an advantage the it's not any everyone can't just do this. It's a commitment. It's not easy. We're working with lots of large dealer groups and lots of like marketing and CRM related agencies that are trying to do this for dealers. Paul J Daly: 14:56 Yeah, no, we're in the middle as hard the agency side of the business. It's like. Like everyone's trying new things right now, which is really encouraging, yeah, but there's no prescription to give people. That's the hard part. I can't say this, then this, then this, put these three things together. It's gonna work, because you're starting in a different place than they're starting. Then they're starting, they're Michael Kraut: 15:15 starting Absolutely. And it's also like, we've, we've tried to identify specific pockets of data that we could provide, because we have really good automotive data, we have ownership data, we have consumer data, we have some credit data, like when you put it together, we could kind of stitch together a really good clientele in your marketplace that you're not touching right now. But there's, there's no, it's not a secret formula. It's still hard to do. And I think you know No, no, less than you know you've heard dealers say, All right, I'm not looking at 30 days of sales only. I'll look at a quarter. Well, they always go back to 30 days. How did I do this? Right? So true, and this is something that it takes a little bit of time, and it's not as prescriptive as dropping, you know, an ad on your local TV station, you know, on Saturday night or something like that, or arguably, Friday night, where people are in front of the TV. First of all, they're not even in front of that TV anymore. That's right, that's half the battle is finding where those customers, where are Paul J Daly: 16:21 they going to be paying attention? Yeah. So if you were to kind of break it down to a metric, what would be the most important metric that dealers should be paying attention to? Michael Kraut: 16:33 There's a there's a thread that's happening. I'll kind of take you back to what I've what I've watched. And at Experian, we have our automotive group. We also have marketing services. We've seen the retail media network. Those are the Amazons, the Walmarts, the targets, yeah, they've become very outcome based. So if you do advertising, if you're a customer of Walmart, and you do advertising on Walmart, they actually could tell you, because they have barcodes and they have God knows how many stores, what kind of lift you've gotten. So this outcome based marketing is starting to seep into other industries. Automotive is being one of them. So at some level, you're gonna have to look at general outcomes in Paul J Daly: 17:30 your market list, not direct attribution, exactly, right? And that's the big shift. That's a big shift last click attribution was like this, this thing that we were chasing, that we could have sworn we saw its tail as we're chasing it over the horizon. I think that's, I think that then we got over the horizon, we were like, oh, there's, like, 50 unicorns over here. And I don't know which Michael Kraut: 17:48 one, I don't know which one did it. It's just important for you to be in so, you know, there's, I think people or dealers and their agencies don't realize that there's a there's a limited amount of time that people care about advertising, or are in front of that advertising, you have to be at a different very Paul J Daly: 18:09 time the life cycle of the purchase consideration, exactly, Michael Kraut: 18:13 and what was so kind of back to your question, I think there has to be some sort of outcomes that can be measured, that dealerships have, and it's not in Paul J Daly: 18:26 so what are some of the outcomes, like, what are, what do you how do you think about lift? How should a dealer think about lift? Michael Kraut: 18:32 I think right now, we've, we've started to see a lot of if you're looking for service, for instance, you could, Paul J Daly: 18:39 it's probably much easier. It's much easier to measure, because it's like a more immediate thing. It's more Michael Kraut: 18:44 immediate. It's sustainable for a couple of weeks. And you could just look at your arrows, and you could see if you're getting some year of years trending quarter, quarter over quarterly, adjusted, seasonally adjusted car sales. Yeah, there's only a handful of companies that could actually do it. But there's Paul J Daly: 19:01 a lot of variables. There's a lot of variables. What are the, what are the what are the deals being run? What are the deals? What are the tariffs? What are the incentives? Like, you Michael Kraut: 19:09 know, we're doing an inventory level. We're doing a workshop at our sales Summit in September, and a lot of the things that we're talking about, you know, the dealer hears that they're going to heavy up on a specific make and model. It could be on air TV, it could be on radio, could be on podcasts, whatever, whatever they're doing. You can't measure it like a day to day to day. You got to look at it a little longer, but so, but you're going to want to look at that so Paul J Daly: 19:37 hard to do in this business, really hard, because it's a 30 day cycle. Michael Kraut: 19:41 And in the mind of the advertiser, it's not a 30 day cycle in consumers. Paul J Daly: 19:46 That's right, I mean, and I think that the pressure even mounts the larger the group gets. Well, I don't know there's like this. I feel like smaller stores, smaller groups tend to be like, really watching 30 days. And then you get to this middle. Eyes where I feel like sometimes you can earn more latitude, whether they're rolling out 90 days 126 months, and they're saying, Okay, we're gonna try to campaign to overall change these numbers. And then you get to the publics, and if anything takes longer than 60 days or between you have, like, your earnings report and earnings report, that's the only latitude. You have latitude there. And so, like, we saw this firsthand, you know, Kyle and I were consulting with the public, and we learned really quickly, in our ignorance that, like, oh, like, the leadership understands that this would probably take nine months to really work, but the Leadership isn't going to get nine. We're not going to get it's just the reality, they're going to get maybe six. Michael Kraut: 20:41 So I think what you know, what we're identifying, is, what are some signals that we could look at that will indicate, Paul J Daly: 20:51 yes, tell me about those. Michael Kraut: 20:52 So we've had a lot of we have access to a lot of different activity that that happens. There's a couple of companies that are doing really good jobs at measuring, say, service, you could start seeing some signals that people are doing, like, what's a good example might be, you know, just coming in for an oil change, someone's just not going to do it because they they see the ad, but they may take action through, you know, search and say, you know, oil in my area, all right, there's a signal there. If the agency is measuring all kinds of signals, they could start to build a picture, yep, and saying, I think this is going to work. You're going to start seeing and a great example now is how there's a lot more connectivity around scheduling services or scheduling an appointment to look at a new car, for instance, or a used car. Those are the types of signals that are embedded. We just choose not to pay Paul J Daly: 22:01 attention, right? Measure them, consider like. Is this marketing affecting that metric exactly versus like? Because that, I mean, someone scheduling an appointment is like, I feel like, at that point, the marketer is like, now it's a sales, now it's a sales conversation. Now it's a sales and that's one of the problems. Is when, like, we're not selling cars so many times, I actually see the sales process is broken the way Lee handling, you know, like staffing properly during peak hours. And in my mind it's like once, once, the appointments delivered, the marketing has done its Michael Kraut: 22:33 job. Yeah, right. But you know, you have some of these organizations, and if you're talking to a public you you walk into some of these stores, they're huge. Yeah, they got 100, 150 people. There's a lot of touch points in your dealership. It's that sort of goes back to, sort of your the data that you're putting in. Like, how accurate is it? You know, some guys are calling in sick. You get somebody, get you pulling over. All right, you're working the Service Desk today, or you're handling ups and stuff like that. So it is not, it's not a it's not a rocket science. It's a very challenging business to run. But back to your point, if you're doing the right marketing sort of touch points. What we just talked about, there's a lot of touch points, so don't get caught on attribution is last right? Paul J Daly: 23:29 You're not, you're never gonna figure it out. It Michael Kraut: 23:32 was a fallacy when it came out. Paul J Daly: 23:34 I mean, yeah, but on the digital side, like, but back in the day, was like, Here's the phone number we put in that ad. If anyone calls that phone number. We know, we know exactly what happens, yeah. But now it's like, what are all the things that make up the story of why the person redirect correct? So we're at time of recording, right? We're heading into September, yeah. And so, you know, you and I were just talking a little bit about, like, what happens now with the loop into a conference season, event season, nada is not that far away already. What are we going to be talking about at nada? What are you going to be talking about at nada? Michael Kraut: 24:07 I think we are going to get caught up on everything in the back of the store, all the fixed op stuff I think you're hearing. Obviously, it's always been a profit center for owners of dealerships. Paul J Daly: 24:22 So much more controllable. It's controllable Michael Kraut: 24:26 their talent there is. They want to use that talent, especially all your tech talent, is back there. There's also, you know, we really are falling into this sort of the cars, whoever you speak to, any large data providers, unequivocally, cars are being held a lot longer. They're being built better. Interestingly enough, you know, the one thing that is great for new cars is they're totaling more cars now than ever, because if you get into an accident, you know, it's now that sensor, that thing, that calibration. Not even worth it, and that's why insurance rates are up, obviously. But the affordability piece is going to be here for a while. It's not going to ebb or change, so Paul J Daly: 25:13 even interest rates, if they go down, don't make that much difference. It's not like a house you buy a house that's a few $1,000 the interest rate matters a lot more than if you buy a car, that's $50,000 Michael Kraut: 25:22 correct, which is probably close to what the average price of a new vehicle. Yeah, it's 49 something. 49 something tracker I see And and so I think people that are involved in dealerships are going to be looking at the back at that fixed Ops is going to be really critical. If you could increase repair orders, fantastic, you might start seeing a much more active role in marketing from the OEM parts divisions. Those are big there's a big business. A lot of that, a Paul J Daly: 25:57 lot of momentum in that area. A Michael Kraut: 25:58 lot of momentum in that area. And then, you know, I one thing that that from an advertising perspective, that we noticed, was there's not as many new cars coming out anymore. There's a lot of rebadges. Yeah, you know, I saw someone has a Ford Maverick out there, which is an f1 50. It's just an Unknown: 26:19 electric vehicle, yeah, that's mine. That's yours. 150 lightning, yeah, Michael Kraut: 26:23 the white one, yeah, that's nice. But you're not seeing a lot of new vehicles like we used to have new launches. Paul J Daly: 26:32 Oh, yeah. Non stop. Non stop, yeah? Because, I mean, they're unable to, they have to focus on efficiency, yeah? And new new vehicles, new lines, just naturally brake efficiency, yeah, right. And now the EV challenge to keep up with it Michael Kraut: 26:44 like you got EVs now you got hybrids. I mean, they're changing gears constantly, and I don't know if they have, you know, I never operated at an OEM, but you have to have a really, Paul J Daly: 26:56 I do not, I do not think gamble. They have a hard, hard job, right? Michael Kraut: 27:00 Yeah, because it also like, designs are important. I don't know how important they are, because Paul J Daly: 27:06 everything looks kind of similar. How's the tech work, right? With, what's, what's the lease payment, what's the monthly Exactly, yeah, different, different set of considerations with, especially with Gen Z coming into the market, Michael Kraut: 27:17 yeah? And I do think that that Gen Z owner is, is not as loyal, obviously. I mean, we've learned that Paul J Daly: 27:26 Spencer, Spencer, are you loyal to car brand? No. He says, Are you loyal? He goes, Yeah. He's like, Oh no, no, no, yeah. Michael Kraut: 27:37 And, you know, I think that that's that's a challenge for the manufacturers to build new cars. People just wanted to work with their Paul J Daly: 27:46 tech. That's it. That's it. Well, look, it's so much fun to have you here. It's great to be here. You came back. So you went to su I went to Syracuse. And so how long has it been since you've been in Syracuse? Quite a long time, 1520, years. What did you do today? Let's see. I saw you. Went to campus. I went to campus. I saw the Carmelo Center, Michael Kraut: 28:05 which was present there 15 years. Was not there. Those were our football football fields. What did you eat? I had a slice of Varsity. Okay, that's Marshall Street's not the same, obviously. Yeah, it's a little different. It's a little different. Now, there wasn't hungry chucks or anything like that, or zorbs, which is now a parking lot, but it was great walking around the quad. I went up to Mount Olympus to Flint, to see my old dorm and freshmen were moving Paul J Daly: 28:36 in. Yeah. So brings you right back. It brings you right back. Oh, well, thank you so much for making it. Was great to be here and hanging out for a little bit and all the work you little bit and all the work you're doing awesome. Can't wait to hang out some more. Yes. Kyle Mountsier: 28:49 Thanks a lot, see, and this is why I never can. So my cable subscription, Paul, yes, you did no cable. Still have cable. Wow. Well, because down here, yeah, because, like, the cable is, yeah, it's it. I actually, like, we watch, I never actually turn on the cable box. We watch all of our cable elements on phone, Apple, TV. It's, it's basically the same thing as all the other ones. But I just, you know, it's one payment instead of 13, which is what he's arguing we're gonna go back to, which is so hilarious, Paul J Daly: 29:23 right back to cable. I know AI is like I brought up in the interview. I know it's gonna play a role in this that we haven't seen anything of yet. Because if you think of a frontier that hasn't really been affected by generative AI or any kind of AI, like verbal input, that actually thinks about what I told it Kyle Mountsier: 29:40 Yes. Like machine learning, personalization, you see Netflix, Apple TV always trying to refine the way that they're doing personally, Paul J Daly: 29:48 even Apple TV doesn't know what it wants, right? Tell me if you want to watch a show like my, my little five year old likes to show the cartoon bad guys. Okay, where do I go to find bad guys? I don't know what platform it's on, so I go to Apple, and then apple. Was like, Oh, here you can buy it, and then I buy it, and then I realize, like, oh, well, I could have watched it on Peacock, right for free. Kyle Mountsier: 30:05 Unbelievable. And so it's coming. I think this is, this will be the next wave, and it'll be really critical for advertisers to understand how the wave comes, because it's going to get more hyper personalized. You're going to get voice input. It's not just going to be personalization based off of history, but off of real time. And figuring out how to navigate that matrix is going to be really interesting. Yeah, so Paul J Daly: 30:27 for me, it's just gonna be like, How can I watch Eagles highlights all the time? Silly Kyle's like, take us out, Kyle, then take us out. Kyle Mountsier: 30:36 We're out of here. Hey, on behalf of Paul J Daly. Michael Cirillo, myself. Kyle Mountsier, really glad you're hanging out with us here on auto Collabs. We'll catch you next time. 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