Pain of Discipline vs. Pain of Regret with Tommy Gibbs

‍SPEAKERS

Kyle Mountsier, Paul Daly, Tommy Gibbs, Michael Cirillo

Michael Cirillo  00:00

This is what I love about what's happening right now.

00:09

This is Auto Collabs.

Michael Cirillo  00:11

We are all three of us sitting in front of microphones. We are trying to figure out how to talk to each other through

Paul Daly  00:19

AR and not only that, but at much at much effort we traveled to Philadelphia to do.

Michael Cirillo  00:26

The most expensive conversation we've ever had.

Kyle Mountsier  00:28

We have to figure this out because we can't walkie talkie to each other.

Paul Daly  00:32

While we're sitting here. I just added Michael Cirillo. I don't know. walkie talkies supposed to be a function. I invited you. I don't know. We'll figure this out by episode 28.

Michael Cirillo  00:42

Will we be able to record podcasts like this? No, definitely not. Okay, so admittedly, I know nothing about Tommy Gibbs. You do though,

Paul Daly  00:50

because you just moved to Texas, and your son is now playing high school football.

Michael Cirillo  00:54

And he's a high school football coach. There

Paul Daly  00:56

you go. He was I don't know if he still is did he say he still was I don't think he is when you hear him talk. You're like, this is totally the high school football coach like the real one. Not like the fill in. Like the one that your son probably reports to every day,

Michael Cirillo  01:07

like, head of boys athletics. Kind of a thing? Yeah.

Kyle Mountsier  01:11

Yeah. Well, so Tommy Gibbs, for me is someone that has like restructured my approach to used cars, even back probably seven, eight years ago, when I was, you know, in the dealership and starting to understand how to approach inventory, how to approach age, how to approach merchandising. And so like, sometimes you can look at people that have been in the business for so long, you're not really sure, like, have they carried through on some of the things that are change changing and shifting. And what I appreciate about Tommy is he he understands the blocking and tackling that's always been a part of automotive. And he he also approaches that with the fact that technology now exists, and that and that there are new inventory dynamics, and he's always watching exactly what's going on. You know, I highly encourage people that are in the industry practitioners, especially dealers, that are trying to figure out how to manage their inventory better. He's got a newsletter. You should check it out. Oh, yeah, it is a lot of green, I will tell you that. But other than that, the content is great. He's branded himself really well. And he's just got a really, really clear mind and approach to inventory and used car management.

Paul Daly  02:25

Well, we hope you enjoy this interview with Tommy Gibbs.

Kyle Mountsier  02:37

All right, we are hanging out with Tommy Gibbs. And if you don't know Tommy Gibbs, shame on you. But

Paul Daly  02:47

But starting today,

Kyle Mountsier  02:49

so we're starting off strong with today. Tommy, thank you so much for joining us, sir.

Tommy Gibbs  02:55

Thanks for having me. It's exciting. Absolutely. So

Kyle Mountsier  02:59

the first time I woke will air quotes for those that can watch the video met Tommy Gibbs was actually not a meeting, but it was a forwarded email from my previous COO and Managing Partner back probably in 2014. I think it maybe it might have even been 2013. And it was a forwarded email of one of Tommy Gibbs, his weekly newsletter updates. And it is, if you've ever gotten an update, you know, it's in your inbox because it's got the green it's very like, you know that Tommy is writing and it feels like to you, and on this particular email. There was attached and Tommy, I think you still share this today. But it was it was a simple document. And it's your at risk inventory. Like lat walk, I can't remember exactly what the document was titled. And it basically takes your oldest 10 cars at risk. And it was like it was basically an email that said this. If if you don't go out there and do this with your inventory at your store today, I will cut you and and so that was my that was my first introduction to Tommy Gibbs. Now he wasn't the one saying I will cut you it was my it was my manager. And he's so much more gracious than that. But that's the way I felt it and took it. But But that's kind of the way that you serve the industry which with which is with these types of tools. So, you know, Tommy, I kind of wanted to hear because that was the first time I got to meet you. But you've been in the industry much longer than that. So give us a little like go all the way back to kind of where you started in the industry. And what what gave gave what how the industry gave us Tommy Tommy Gibbs

Tommy Gibbs  04:49

Yeah, well, I I got into college and I was a head football coach at a military prep school and then did that a couple years wouldn't make any money. So I said What the heck, I'll start selling cars are something better comes along. And you've heard this story before. And nothing better ever came along. Sold cars, this was in 1972, I sold cars, well, less than a year, and then they may be used car manager. The only reason they made me used car manager because they caught the current used car manager stealing, which is pretty commonplace in those days. And they figured I wasn't smart enough to steal because I didn't know squat. And so then, after about a year of that, the gather, who is a General Sales Manager, opened his own store. And he went to an open a Lincoln Mercury store in 1974. And I went with him to be his general manager. And that didn't last real long, because in 1974, the energy crunch here, and those are really tough times we were selling the Lincoln's and gas went through the roof, there was no gas, it was gas lines. You guys probably don't recall any of that because you weren't born yet. But

Paul Daly  05:52

we saw pictures.

05:55

And then then I went to work for an f&i training company out of Raleigh, North Carolina. It was a really great experience because what we did was we did kind of what JM&A does today. JM&A was a nothing burger back then the only accounts they had back then were the Toyota stores in the southeast, and now they're the biggest thinner, certainly the best. And so we had 800 dealers and nine southeastern states. So I did that a few years took that company over. And my current employer had a dealership available. He invited me to come back and be a partner and that was in 1980. And so I was a became a new car dealer in 1980. Had some really crappy franchises had Pontiac and Volvo they really sucked back then. Had the Isuzu that wasn't very good. Got Hyundai, which was good for just a short period till they just went into tank because the engines were blowing up people don't remember all the bad things had Suzuki It really sucked because they weren't doing really well. They turned upside down. You may have heard stories about a Susie's rolling all night. I say Suze, I mean, Suzuki, Suzuki is rolling over, it was a real real problem. And so had some tough franchises. But the good news was, it caused me to focus on used cars, and became really good at used cars. And what I learned through that is what I try to share with dealers is if you're really good and used cars, you can always survive. And then I got to Toyota dealership, and Tallahassee, Florida, it was doing really, it was a poor operating stall, we got it up to some really great numbers. And then we cashed out. And I always wanted to be in the training business, I really love being in front of people goes back to my coaching days and that sort of thing. So in 2002, I launched this business after I cashed out of those stores. And in doing that this since 2002. And I got my real break in this business, because 20 groups, let me speak to them. And that was a great marketing tool, if not for the 20 groups out I'd never got off the ground problem. But it really gives you a lot of great exposure. So as your business grows, and you guys are already well known, but I think sharing free information with 20 groups is a really good, good way to good way to get known and good way to launch a business. And then I started speaking at the NADA conventions. And I don't know how many of those are spoken at maybe 15 or so. I'm speaking again this year. So I hope I'll see you there. That's kind of

Paul Daly  08:11

directly see you there. Okay, and we will walk you down with microphones.

Kyle Mountsier  08:15

Without a doubt we will at all times. So here's this is what I at least at first want to lean into. Because being that your start was you said 72. Right in the business. Yeah. You know what, I think that a lot of times if if people are young in the business, or I've only been in for five or 10 years, and even including myself, you know, I've been in it now 13 years, we can get caught in this trap thinking that what's happening right now is brand new, and they And history has never experienced it before. And and what I want from people like you and others and yourself is an encounter, I want you to talk through the cyclical nature of our business and the way that things may not come up exactly as they ever have been, right. It's not, you know, Suzuki, and Isuzu forced you to be a great used car operator, similar to how today inventory issues on the new car side force us to be great car used car operators. And so talk us through some of the the cycles that you've seen and things that are maybe even coming up today that you're looking back going, hey, it's not exactly the same. But if we can point to some of the things that allowed us to be successful in the cyclical nature of the business, we might have reframe some of the things that we're looking at today, you know, with all of the digital and all the things happening and all of the market forces if we just if we just look back a little bit in some hindsight, we actually may be able to draw forward some insights, that if we only look at it as today, then then we're going to trip up what are those cyclical things that you've seen?

09:53

Well, we've been through lots of cycles, no doubt, I think they, they one common thing that keeps coming back to me is if you if you excercise I know this word is overused. But if you exercise good common sense, and and you have the great technology we have today, you will always do well. So what I've noticed in the businesses that, that when we go through these good times, like we're going through right now, this is when we get really sloppy. And this happens, every cycle, every cycle, we have good times. And then when when things kind of get tough, we get back to our core basics, we get back to doing the things we know that are important. And then what happens is, right, when we start to go back to the good times, we make a lot of money, because we got to ship an order that kind of makes sense, I guess. Yeah, yeah. So I think that that's the common thing, though, that the deal is they go through those cycles, but the ones who do it well, all the time, make the most money, even in the good time. So everybody's having a good times right now. But trust me, there's some people out there that are doing it really, really super well. And they're making a ton more money than those other people that are making it just by happenstance, sometimes, you know, you have success in spite of yourself. And some and some of it right now is been down that path. And so again, if you if you have these core disciplines, and you stay focused on the right process and do the right things all the time, you always win in this business, no matter what happens in the cycle, I hear people talking about a recession is coming or our inventory is short, and I go, who cares? I mean, I really don't, I don't think you should really care if you're doing the right things that you should be doing. Because if your inventory is is being handled correctly, if you don't have a lot of aged units, or any aged units for that matter, if you don't let that happen to you right now, when times are good. It's not going to matter what happens to the value of cars, because you're always operating in today's market. You're not dealing with inventory from yesterday, so to speak. So if you own that mindset of turning inventory every 30 days, if you're operating on this 30/30 concept, then how can you get in but so much trouble you can

Paul Daly  11:59

you know, we're in August right now. So I'm getting all fired up about football season, right? It's starting my email inboxes filling up I'm getting so I got tickets to some games, I have to start ordering some jerseys. And I can't help but think of the football coach analogy. Right? You said you started as a football coach? What are the similarities you see about like the focus you need to do as a football team? Right, and focusing on the fundamentals and little things like how do you draw some parallels between those things? Because I know there's a lot of football fans in our audience. And you probably think in terms of that. So just curious to get your perspective? Well,

Tommy Gibbs  12:31

I think it's it's it gets back down to basics, if you're a football coach, you're always focused on basis is in player in the correct stance are, are they coming off the ball the way they need to come off the ball, those are fundamental basic, if you come off the ball faster than everybody else, nine times out of 10, you're gonna win. If you have good peripheral vision. If you're a deep, I was a defensive back in college, if you have good peripheral vision, you can see what's going on. If you're a dealer, or a general manager or sales manager, whatever, you have to have good vision and know what's going on around you at all times. There's so many parallels to this. And so you have to pay attention to what's going on around you. So if you're in the business today, you've got to be aware of what's going on, we don't panic, because we hear it's a recession is coming. We just make sure that we're doing all the things that we know we need to be doing. And it's no different when you're coaching football, it's not not a bit of difference. And it's it's the same team concept. It's all about the team. So if you think about it, we have an offensive team and football, we have a defensive team. Let's just keep it those simple, two simple components, because there's other pieces. But but it's the sales department is the offensive team and the service department might be the defensive thing. But in the end, everybody's got to play well together. And so that's oftentimes a missing component. We have these different divisions in the dealerships, but nobody's really paying attention to what's going on and how much they're fighting against each other. And you never maximize your production when that's happening. Yes. And in a normal football practice, the linebackers practice by themselves, maybe in the defensive lineman practice by themselves in the offensive lineman and the offensive backs and the receivers and whatever. But we have to bring them all together for game day to make sure we're all playing well together. It's so many parallels.

Paul Daly  14:10

I love this analogy, who in the dealership has special teams to deal so you gotta pay for that?

Tommy Gibbs  14:17

Let's go with the BDC or internet department. I love it.

Kyle Mountsier  14:23

I love it. Yeah. Is it BDC? Or is it accounting?

Paul Daly  14:26

My first thought was the off site.

Kyle Mountsier  14:29

Yeah. The front office, they're not the same thing like that. It's not the same thing as in football.

Paul Daly  14:36

So special teams probably actually is some squad that is like some salesman and someone in the back office and someone in service who like when something happens, they kind of like come together to just make a play.

Tommy Gibbs  14:50

So once I don't lose it it's sort of like this though. In a football team may not have the most plays that may not have the most exotic plays. But if you run the plays, they know really, really well. They're going to score. We don't have to have, we don't have to have the best selling processes. But whatever process that we have, we own them. And we do them every day. We're going to win. I'm sorry, you asked about No,

Paul Daly  15:18

that's, that's a great I love data. Because I think that the fancy plays, right trick plays this and that, like, I just would we use the word technology, right, everybody, or a lot of people think a technology component is going to fix something that's going to get them a result. And your point to be like, hey, look, you could take the oldest sales method in the book. And if you follow it really, really well guess what? It's gonna work.

Tommy Gibbs  15:41

It doesn't have to be the best selling process, as long as you own it, and you do it correctly every day, you're gonna be okay.

Kyle Mountsier  15:49

Yeah, you know, it's interesting, because like what I know about, you know, and obviously, you do coaching and training, one on one with dealerships and dealer groups, but you also just provide like, a lot of materials for people, like if they're on your email, which you should grab that, especially if you're in used car operations, or on the sales side, but you just you provide a lot of these free things. And when you look at them, at first glance, just real talk, when you look at some of these documents, or little like, you know, like plays, right, that you say like, here's the playbook, or here's a playbook you can run. There's nothing really fancy about it. It's not like it's not some like mind boggling, holy cow, how did we come up with this amazing, like psychographic of analysis of a huge car. It's like, here's 10 boxes, and you should just work on them every day. And if you do that, you might have some success on the No,

Tommy Gibbs  16:47

it's not, it's truly not rocket science. So we're used to, I guess, but one of the things we say do every day is attack your 10 most expensive units and stock that 10 cars that you have the most money on, if you go after them every day, be aware, have you ever been priced, make sure that they're ready to go blah, blah, blah, whatever you can divide, however, you might want to define attacking. If you have a greater awareness of those 10 cars, you're going to be that is about as simple as it can get in this business is being aware of your 10 Most Expensive cars, which often are oftentimes your 10 oldest units.

Paul Daly  17:20

So get get practical for saying let's go practical. So you say attack your 10 oldest cars, if you're giving advice in your row to a dealer, how are you telling them to do that? What should they be doing about those?

Tommy Gibbs  17:30

Number one, they used car manager prints a list out every day of those 10 cars, and distributes it to the service department, the service manager, the Recon manager, whoever's back there, the f&i manager, the BDC, every sales manager, desk manager, and I want everybody to be aware that these 10 cars need to be top priority and make them go away. Now, if I'm a service manager, I get that list every morning, and I'm looking at 10 Most Expensive cars, I'm going to check that list to see Are any of those cars in the service department?

Paul Daly  17:58

You send it for any of you said print the list? Is there something behind printing it and fit? Does that elevate the level of importance to you,

Tommy Gibbs  18:05

I really believe it does. Like I love being the show things on the screen and of whatever. But you know, sometimes when you have something in handy, you walk around with it, and you look at it, it has an impact. And so the the the agreement that we have is to the with the service managers, Mr. Service Manager, as a service manager, if any of these 10 cars is in your department right now, you got to get them out. Why did they have to get them out there the cars that we have the greatest risk, and then I say to the sales department, sales management, look, if we get a chance to work a deal on any of these 10 cars, let's make sure unless it's something really special about these cars, let's make sure they go away quickly. Because as soon as they go away, the more money we're really making as far as return on investment. And I want that to be throughout the management team, f&i, BDC, and so on. So that's kind of how I suggest you manage those, that list of 10 cars.

Kyle Mountsier  18:53

Well, that that immediately what you were just talking about, about this barrier between some service and parts and sales departments. And I think that by and large, that is becoming less of an impact factor in automotive, we're seeing more, thankfully, we're seeing more general managers or operating directors or things like that, breaking the boundaries of that. And we're starting to see more like level 10 If you're in attraction, or just general meetings where all of these players are coming, so it's becoming less and less. But if if it's like if the focus is less on a department and more on a unit that it's the goal is the goal is everyone's attacking that instead of attacking each other, so you're just redirecting attention and focus. So you immediately break down those barriers. It's a great simple task a day.

Tommy Gibbs  19:39

I was pressed pretty good analogy I like the whole lot easier to use every once in a while. Blind dog

Paul Daly  19:47

finds bone every now and then. There's a phrase or a statement at the bottom of your email. This is the second time I've read through an email that you've sent. And it says the pain of discipline or the pain have regret. Is that on every email, or is that just this month?

20:03

I think it's on every email. I think it's whenever you really, really believe in that. Yeah. So well the pain, unpack that for a second. Well, the pain of discipline and the way I present this and the use car aspect of it, the pain, the pain of discipline, is making sure that we are on top of inventory, that we don't let stuff age on us that we identify problematic cars on day one, such as maybe it's a high mileage car, we overpaid, whatever it may be, that becomes a problem identifying those problematic cars on day one, we have the discipline to do those little things. If we understood that, right? It cost them yeah, oh, yeah. And that, therefore we don't have the pain of regret, the pain of regret is you wake up one day, oh, my God, I got 30 units out there that over 60 days old, the market is shifted. There's your pain of regret. So that's, that's, that's the context.

Paul Daly  20:52

And given what everybody is predicting about the used car market over the next, you know, that the balance of the year, and what the what the prediction of what the trend pricing and stuff is going to be that alone should be enough to snap people to? Right, because 30 60 days from now, if you're sitting on inventory, I don't think there are many people, you know, ticking little vote saying like, I don't think it's gonna go up.

Tommy Gibbs  21:14

Yeah, what I tell you, what bothers me is the pandemic allowed the dealers to get rid of inventory that they had aged out on them. And it was it was a blessing in that sense, because inventory became scarce, they were able to sell cars, they'd have 90 days and make money on them. Right. But as I alluded to earlier, what I'm seeing in some of the numbers that I look at is the dealers are getting sloppy again. And they're going Yeah, well, they're thinking that because they made money on a car, a year or so ago that they kept for 90 days, they can keep other cars for 90 days. And that's going to come back and bite him in the butt, that's going to be the pain of regret right there.

Paul Daly  21:53

So if you could, he's like, so if you could give us the prescription, you know, like the bullet points, and how to fundamentally approach the whole used car department, you gave us kind of like the one the 10 highest prices, if you could give us a few bullet points on, you know, like five things that used car manager specifically, but you know, we'll just say dealers and group everybody. And if you could give them some advice on just here's some quick hits, if you focus on these fundamentals, your business, your used car business will improve.

22:27

Yeah, I don't know if I can give you five or Not off the top of that. But when I wanted, here's, here's number one, this is number one. And this this proves true every time. If a dealer, a general manager owns the used car department, you will see tremendous success. Now what do I mean by that? I say to dealers, they'll hire a used car manager to hire someone from the outside, or they'll promote someone from within now say like, don't turn it over to them, I know you hire them, and you're paying them big money. But no, you need to be aware of everything that's going on that used car department, don't just depend on the used car manager and know that I if I'm the dealer, GM, I'm gonna be internally involved in use car department because it drives the entire dealership, and you show me a general manager, or our owner that is involved in the used car department, I'm going to show you a really successful operation, a used car man should want them to be involved, because the dealer principal or the GM can remove the obstacles, they have the power to fix whatever issues are going on. But oftentimes, a dealer general manager might say, well, you know, I never was a used car manager, I don't know much about it. So I'm just going to hire someone to do it. That's a really bad idea. I don't care how you want to slice and dice it. So my number one thing is, if a dealer if someone wants to improve the used car operation, as a dealer, Principal, our general manager, get more involved in the used car department and own it. And the other couple of little things I want to share with you is always be aware of what your average cost per unit is and stop. So it doesn't matter what it is today, it's obviously gone way up and might even be on average, maybe 28 or $30,000. Today, it's going to depend on the brand. If your Mercedes dealer your average cost per use cardstocks going to be a lot higher than maybe a Hyundai dealer. That kind of makes sense. But I think that one of the things that we suggest is just like what the 10 most expensive is that you need to be aware of what your average cost is and seek to press it down. In other words, if we can, if we can stay focused on that number makes sure we're turning the more expensive stuff faster. That brings the average down. If we focus on making sure we're retailing some of the cheaper stuff that maybe we have in the past wholesale. And that's really changed a lot of deals today. So many deals today are keeping much much higher mileage cars, right keeping those cars in inventory, which is really smart. My opinion. I've always thought that at the very least you should have a budget son on premise to make sure you keep some of those cars and if you're in a state where you can sell them as is whatever it may be, you need to be making the money on those cars. is not enough wholesale them. And then the other thing I would say is, and this will probably be my final one to throw in here is understand that every car doesn't deserve the same life cycle. In other words, if I buy a car at the auction, I'm not going to treat it like a normal use car, it's not the same as a trade in, it's not the same as a car purchase from a customer. It's a much higher risk car. And so I'm going to shorten the shelf life on that car, I made all of that that car have a 35 30 day window, maybe 45 day window, before I price it right to make it get gone. I always want to think about retailing cars, I don't want to think about whole selling cars at the end of their lifecycle at the end of the lifecycle. I want to think about how can I retail this because I'm not talking about a piece that comes into your inventory. It's a junker, you're going to wholesale it. That's a different piece. There's a for that going in, right? Yeah, correct. That car that I thought well enough to put it on my lot as a retail piece. As it starts to get to a certain number. I'm gonna think about retailing it out. So if it's a nice trade in, I might keep that car 60 days I might. But But more often than not, I might not even keep a car 60 days. But the point is that if it's a problematic car, it's a bad color. What day is a car bad color on? It's a bad color on day one? I think I'll have deals I'll say, Tell me about your your oldest used car in stock and and they'll say, Well, I've got this car, and I've had it 70 days. Why do you? Why have you had so many days? What's a bad color? Okay. What was

Kyle Mountsier  26:28

that 70 days ago, and you could have priced it right?

Tommy Gibbs  26:31

Bye bye, buy. You can teach the workshop. That's it right there.

Kyle Mountsier  26:37

I know, I know. So

Tommy Gibbs  26:39

if they, if they don't even I have a system and software that that helps deals with that. But even if they didn't use my stuff, if they didn't do anything, but identify problematic cars on day one, have a different strategy for that car and have a plan for that car. They'd be so much about all they'd be winning, winning, winning,

Kyle Mountsier  26:56

you know, I don't know if this came from you or someone else. But the phrase that I that I heard over and over in my head and it just got pressed in was your first loss is your best loss. And there's so I don't know if you came up with that. And then the other point is, is that is that your is that the exit is is that you should know your exit plan during your purchase plan? Because the vehicle is not sold based on what you own it for. It's based on what you exit it for. Absolutely. Absolutely. If if dealers could get that, like we would stop having dealers complaining about 60 Day on inventory, because every every car has an opportunity to have a seat for it. So

27:37

but again, I think what happens is dealers and general managers don't stay involved enough in the used car department, they influence

Paul Daly  27:45

your point. Well, Tommy, we cannot wait to hang out at ASOTU CON. Smart people together. And we're gonna watch the magic happen live on stage and happens. I mean, you're part of the clubhouse rooms. If you're listening to the Auto Collabs right now on clubhouse, the audio app, every Friday, we have an All Things Used Cars room hosted or created by David Long and Tommy is one of the OGs. And they're always in there with 100 to 200 other dealers and industry partners sharing real time tips like this. Tommy, thank you so much for giving us a few minutes today. And we'll see you before you know it will be in Philly together.

Tommy Gibbs  28:21

Thank you guys. Thanks for having me on and have a great day.

Paul Daly  28:29

All right. Speaking of fundamentals, I love how Tommy just kept bringing it back to the basics. Like I know all this other crazy stuff is going. And there are all these new ideas and solutions and situations and OEMs and inflation and all that. But if you do these things and focus on these basics, you're gonna make infinite improvement in your store. Because he's like, I can tell you already you're not

Kyle Mountsier  28:53

Yeah, it's wild to me. And we do this in so many parts of business is we start moving in all my life. Yeah, we start moving to all of these, like attractional new things, and we start to like, slip away from the basics. So you watch especially dealers, and I was a part of this for so long. All of a sudden, it's like, oh, we're running at this marketing campaign or thing and, and we think it's gonna be the thing that works. And so we pour a lot of attention and energy over here. And then all of a sudden, it's not working and someone goes, Hey, but um, you know, we're trying to sell cars, so you might want to photo him. Yeah.

Michael Cirillo  29:30

I think about, you know, as you're bringing up fundamentals, and as he's talked about it, it's easy for us to understand the importance of fundamentals in say, like keeping our body alive, like you gotta breathe. How much more foundational, can you get the mat, but then, when you try and do something new, like, say run track, the first thing your coach points out is that you're actually not breathing properly this thing, right and if you just started focusing on your breathing a little bit more. It could be anything like yoga meditation, they always bring it right back down down to something as simple as how you breathe and how that can have an impact. And so basically, you know, what I'm taking from this is we all stopped breathing properly, and then tried to do the more strenuous activities and wonder why we keep tripping up. So I think that's tremendous insights from our pal Tommy Gibbs on behalf of Kyle Mountsier, Paul Daly and myself, Michael Cirillo, this is Auto Collabs. Thanks so much for joining us.

30:32

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